Merge pull request #463 from PerseusDL/tlg0059_review

(tlg0059_review)

data/tlg0059/tlg023/tlg0059.tlg023.perseus-eng2.xml

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 					<said who="#Callicles"><label>Call.</label> <p>Socrates, you seem to be roistering recklessly in your talk, like the true demagogue that you are;  and you are declaiming now in this way because Polus has got into the same plight as he was accusing Gorgias of letting himself be led into by you.  For he said, I think, when you asked Gorgias whether, supposing a man came to him with no knowledge of justice but a desire to learn rhetoric, he would instruct the man, <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="482d"/> Gorgias showed some shame and said he would, because of the habit of mind in people which would make them indignant if refused—and  so, because of this admission, he was forced to contradict himself, and that was just what suited you—and Polus was right, to my thinking, in mocking at you as he did then;  but this time he has got into the very same plight himself.  For my own part, where I am not satisfied with Polus is just that concession he made to you—that doing wrong <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="482e"/> is fouler than suffering it;  for owing to this admission he too in his turn got entangled in your argument and had his mouth stopped, being ashamed to say what he thought.  For you, Socrates, really turn the talk into such low, popular clap-trap, while you give out that you are pursuing the truth—into stuff that is <q type="emph">fair,</q> not by nature, but by convention.<note resp="Loeb" anchored="true">The distinction between <q type="emph">natural,</q> or absolute, and <q type="emph">conventional,</q> or legal, right, first made by the Ionian Archelaus who taught Socrates in his youth, is developed at length in the Republic (<bibl n="Plat. Rep. 388a">Plat. Rep. 1.388 ff</bibl>.), and was a constant subject of discussion among the sophists of Plato’s time.</note></p></said></div>
 
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 					<said who="#Callicles" rend="merge"><label>Call.</label> <p>Yet for the most part these two—nature and convention—are opposed to each other, so that if a man is ashamed and dares not say what he thinks, he is forced
 
 <milestone unit="page" resp="Stephanus" n="483"/><milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="483a"/>to contradict himself.  And this, look you, is the clever trick you have devised for our undoing in your discussions:  when a man states anything according to convention you slip <q type="emph">according to nature</q> into your questions;  and again, if he means nature, you imply convention.  In the present case, for instance, of doing and suffering wrong, when Polus was speaking of what is conventionally fouler, you followed it up in the sense of what is naturally so.  For by nature everything is fouler that is more evil, such as suffering wrong:  doing it is fouler only by convention.  Indeed this endurance of wrong done is not a man’s part at all, but a poor slave’s, <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="483b"/> for whom it is better to be dead than alive, as it is for anybody who, when wronged or insulted, is unable to protect himself or anyone else for whom he cares.  But I suppose the makers of the laws are the weaker sort of men, and the more numerous.  So it is with a view to themselves and their own interest that they make their laws and distribute their praises and censures;  <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="483c"/> and to terrorize the stronger sort of folk who are able to get an advantage, and to prevent them from getting one over them, they tell them, that such aggrandizement is foul and unjust, and that wrongdoing is just this endeavor to get the advantage of one’s neighbors:  for I expect they are well content to see themselves on an equality, when they are so inferior.  So this is why by convention it is termed unjust and foul to aim at an advantage over the majority, <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="483d"/> and why they call it wrongdoing:  but nature, in my opinion, herself proclaims the fact that it is right for the better to have advantage of the worse, and the abler of the feebler.  It is obvious in many cases that this is so, not only in the animal world, but in the states and races, collectively, of men—that right has been decided to consist in the sway and advantage of the stronger over the weaker.  For by what manner of right did Xerxes
 						<milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="483e"/>march against <placeName key="tgn,1000074">Greece</placeName>, or his father against <placeName key="tgn,6005315">Scythia</placeName>?  Or take the countless other cases of the sort that one might mention.  Why, surely these men follow nature—the nature of right—in acting thus;  yes, on my soul, and follow the law<note resp="Loeb" anchored="true">Callicles boldly applies the word <foreign xml:lang="grc">νόμος</foreign>, which so far has been used in the sense of man-made law or convention, in its widest sense of <gloss>general rule</gloss> or <gloss>principle.</gloss></note> of nature—though not that, I dare say, which is made by us;</p></said></div>
 
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 					<said who="#Callicles" rend="merge"><label>Call.</label> <p>we mold the best and strongest amongst us, taking them from their infancy like young lions, and utterly enthral them by our spells
 						<milestone unit="page" resp="Stephanus" n="484"/><milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="484a"/>and witchcraft, telling them the while that they must have but their equal share, and that this is what is fair and just.  But, I fancy, when some man arises with a nature of sufficient force, he shakes off all that we have taught him, bursts his bonds, and breaks free;  he tramples underfoot our codes and juggleries, our charms and <q type="emph">laws,</q> which are all against nature;  our slave rises in revolt and shows himself our master, and there <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="484b"/> dawns the full light of natural justice.  And it seems to me that Pindar adds his evidence to what I say, in the ode where he says—<cit><quote type="verse"><l met="U">Law the sovereign of all,</l><l>Mortals and immortals,</l></quote><bibl>Pind. Fr. 169 (Bergk)</bibl></cit>which, so he continues,—<cit><quote type="verse"><l met="U">Carries all with highest hand,</l><l>Justifying the utmost force:  in proof I take</l><l>The deeds of <placeName key="tgn,2086286">Hercules</placeName>, for unpurchased</l></quote><bibl>Pind. Fr. 169 (Bergk)</bibl></cit>—the words are something like that—I do not know the poem well—but it tells how he drove off the cows <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="484c"/> as neither a purchase nor a gift from Geryones;  taking it as a natural right that cows ar any other possessions of the inferior and weaker should all belong to the superior and stronger. Well, that is the truth of the matter;  and you will grasp it if you will now put philosophy aside and pass to greater things.  For philosophy, you know, Socrates, is a charming thing, if a man has to do with it moderately in his younger days;  but if he continues to spend his time on it too long, it is ruin to any man.  However well endowed one may be, if one philosophizes far on into life, one must needs find oneself <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="484d"/> ignorant of everything that ought to be familiar to the man who would be a thorough gentleman and make a good figure in the world.  For such people are shown to be ignorant of the laws of their city, and of the terms which have to be used in negotiating agreements with their fellows in private or in public affairs, and of human pleasures and desires;  and, in short, to be utterly inexperienced in men’s characters.  So when they enter upon any private or public business they make themselves ridiculous, just as on the other hand, I suppose, when public men <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="484e"/> engage in your studies and discussions, they are quite ridiculous.</p></said></div>
 
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 					<said who="#Callicles" rend="merge"><label>Call.</label> <p>The fact is, as Euripides has it—<quote type="verse"><l met="iambic">Each shines in that, to that end presses on,</l><l>Allotting there the chiefest part of the day,</l><l>Wherein he haply can surpass himself—</l></quote><bibl>Eur. Antiope Fr.</bibl><note resp="Loeb" anchored="true">Zethus and <placeName key="tgn,2132474">Amphion</placeName>, twins born to Zeus by Antiope, were left by her on Mt. Cithaeron, where Zethus grew up as a man of the field, and <placeName key="tgn,2132474">Amphion</placeName> as a musician.  Here probably <placeName key="tgn,2132474">Amphion</placeName> is speaking in defence of the quieter life;  further on, in the quotations given in <bibl n="Plat. Gorg. 489b">Plat. Gorg. 489b</bibl>, <bibl n="Plat. Gorg. 489c">Plat. Gorg. 489c</bibl>, Zethus reproaches him with his effeminacy.</note>
 						<milestone unit="page" resp="Stephanus" n="485"/><milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="485a"/>whereas that in which he is weak he shuns and vilifies;  but the other he praises, in kindness to himself, thinking in this way to praise himself also.  But the most proper course, I consider, is to take a share of both.  It is a fine thing to partake of philosophy just for the sake of education, and it is no disgrace for a lad to follow it:  but when a man already advancing in years continues in its pursuit, the affair, Socrates, becomes ridiculous;  and for my part I have much the same feeling <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="485b"/> towards students af philosophy as towards those who lisp or play tricks.  For when I see a little child, to whom it is still natural to talk in that way, lisping or playing some trick, I enjoy it, and it strikes me as pretty and ingenuous and suitable to the infant’s age;  whereas if I hear a small child talk distinctly, I find it a disagreeable thing, and it offends my ears and seems to me more befitting a slave.  But when one hears a grown man lisp, <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="485c"/> or sees him play tricks, it strikes one as something ridiculous and unmanly, that deserves a whipping.  Just the same, then, is my feeling towards the followers of philosophy.  For when I see philosophy in a young lad I approve of it;  I consider it suitable, and I regard him as a person of liberal mind:  whereas one who does not follow it I account illiberal and never likely to expect of himself any fine or generous action.  <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="485d"/> But when I see an elderly man still going on with philosophy and not getting rid of it, that is the gentleman, Socrates, whom I think in need of a whipping. For as I said just now, this person, however well endowed he may be, is bound to become unmanly through shunning the centers and marts of the city, in which, as the poet<note resp="Loeb" anchored="true"><bibl n="Hom. Il. 9.441">Hom. Il.  9.441</bibl>.</note> said, <quote>men get them note and glory</quote>;  he must cower down and spend the rest of his days whispering in a corner with three or four lads, and never utter anything free or high or spirited.  <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="485e"/> Now I, Socrates, am quite fairly friendly to you, and so I feel very much at this moment as Zethus did, whom I have mentioned, towards Amphion in Euripides.</p></said></div>
 
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 					<said who="#Callicles" rend="merge"><label>Call.</label> <p>  Indeed I am prompted to address you in the same sort of words as he did his brother:  <q type="spoken">You neglect, Socrates, what you ought to mind;  you distort with a kind of boyish travesty a soul of such noble nature; 
 <milestone unit="page" resp="Stephanus" n="486"/><milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="486a"/>and neither will you bring to the counsels of justice any rightly spoken word, nor will you accept any as probable or convincing, nor advise any gallant plan for your fellow.</q>  And yet, my dear Socrates—now do not be annoyed with me, for I am going to say this from goodwill to you—does it not seem to you disgraceful to be in the state I consider you are in, along with the rest of those who are ever pushing further into philosophy?  For as it is, if somebody should seize hold of you or anyone else at all of your sort, and drag you off to prison, asserting that you were guilty of a wrong you had never done, you know you would be at a loss what to do with yourself, and would be all dizzy <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="486b"/> and agape without a word to say;  and when you came up in court, though your accuser might be ever so paltry a rascal, you would have to die if he chose to claim death as your penalty.  And yet what wisdom is there, Socrates, <q type="spoken">in an art that found a man of goodly parts and made him worse,</q> unable either to succor himself, or to deliver himself or anyone else from the greatest dangers, but like <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="486c"/> to be stripped by his enemies of all his substance, and to live in his city as an absolute outcast?  Such a person, if one may use a rather low expression, can be given a box on the ear with impunity.  No, take my advice, my good sir, <q type="spoken">and cease refuting;  some practical proficiency induce,</q>—something that will give you credit for sense:  <q type="spoken">to others leave these pretty toys,</q>—call them vaporings or fooleries as you will,— <milestone unit="section" resp="Stephanus" n="486d"/> <q type="spoken">which will bring you to inhabit empty halls</q>;  and emulate, not men who probe these trifles, but who have means and repute and other good things in plenty.</p></said>