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Alcoholic beverages in FOODON #17
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I agree with you with focusing on I'll reconfigure these in FoodOn within the next day or two.
I concur, these are more suitable as subclasses.
I agree with the placement of As for |
Sorry for the delay. Many of the aforementioned changes have been implemented, with Some additional information was added to |
Not sure this issue should be closed. It seems like the beer category should be built out according to, or at least mapped to, the various official and semi-official style guidelines. Here is a partial list: Brewers Association: https://cdn.brewersassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/BA-beer-style-guidelines-2020.pdf Japan: http://beertaster.org/beerstyle/web1804/beerstyle_main1804_e.html AIBA: Note the Australian InternationalBeer Awards (AIBA) is the largest annual competition in the world: https://web.archive.org/web/20180323174844/http://rasv.com.au/Events/AIBA_Home/AIBA_Entries/AIBA_Publications/AIBA_2018_EntryBooklet Note that the BJCP (Beer Judging Certificate Program) also has mead and cider styles with ingredient reference. There are spreadsheets here too, so the import should be straightforward. https://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php Craftbeer.com offers a nice style guide (https://www.craftbeer.com/beer/beer-styles-guide) as well as some beautiful pics (https://www.craftbeer.com/beer-styles) these line-up nicely (but not perfectly) with brewersassociation.org and bjcp .org references Best, ~Matthew |
@mateolan I agree that we should leave this issue open. The beer branch definitely needs more fleshing out and the resources you provided will be very helpful, thank you! |
@cmrn-rhi thanks for changes. I agree with everything above, except I don't think 'mead' should be a subclass of 'Beer'. It should be a food product since it is fermented honey, which isn't a plant. |
@JessSing totally right. Additionally, .the fermentation process and products needs rethinking from a microbiologists perspective. That is, these products should be classed in terms of the types of fermentations. For instance: Depending on the ferm type/organism/etc, the fermentation will yield acid, alcohol, or a variety of other products...and have significant impact on chemical qualities and sensory attributes |
I think mead is actually FoodOn's = "mead wine", since on the Net there seems to be no other sense of "mead wine" that doesn't point to mead? |
I agree it shouldn't be under beer, my suggestion was placing it where The only reason I held off on adding it immediately is because there appears to be a debate within the mead community whether In FoodOn It also had me thinking about at what point does Would love to hear everyone's thoughts. EDIT: There is also |
I can follow up with sources later today when I have some time. |
I will try to get some information about cider vs apple wine since in the lab we have a team working closely with the technical Center for cider Please also notice that in France, the use of the word "wine" is very strict, and should be reserved for the alcoholic drink typically made from fermented grape juice. |
As for mead, in French, we have "hydromel" or "chouchen", which are fermented honey drinks. |
In FoodOn is a synonym an additional term linked to the primary term or an additional label? |
Synonyms are additional terms linked to a primary term using the oboInOwl:hasSynonym, oboInOwl:hasExactSynonym, oboInOwl:hasNarrowSynonym (for terms we haven't necessarily gotten around to curating, or don't have enough information on, or or brand things out of our purview), and oboInOwl:hasBroadSynonym. Both hasSynonym and hasBroadSynonym are being discouraged/phased out in favour of the other two. |
We anticipate additional labels will only exist for language translations of the primary (english) label. |
Re: MeadSorry for the delay in my following-up. Here are some sources, with "formal" being technical, a publication, or from someone that appear to be an expert; while "informal" is not necessarily any of the former Sources that consider mead it’s own category:
Otherwise, there are lots of formal and informal sources that consider mead a honey wine. Here are just a couple (US centric):
I agree with @maweber-bia that we should treat UPDATE 2021-29-01 Have a slight shift in this opinion, as I realize I need to take a deeper dive into some of the other resources listed here, but I think having |
Re: Wine
@maweber-bia do you know if France has a classification for the fermented beverages that other countries might consider "none-grape wines"? |
I will try to find it but for sure, we have clear distinctions in the "alcoholic" and non-alcoholic" beverage sectors as regards the legislative rules (for example, for non-alcoholic beverages, what a "juice" is, or a "nectar", etc.) |
@cmrn-rhi I confirm that the UK CAMRA still uses the word mead. @maweber-bia A set of terms that define things according to the different legislations would be useful in aligning / differentiating food across jurisdictions. |
Hereafter are the comments from the INRAE expert about the denomination "Apple wine" : It was mainly the Germans who used Apfel Wein a lot. Apfel Wein is easily translated as Apple wine but "cider" is the classic term for fermented apple products. From a cultural point of view, the terms cidre (French), cider (English), chistr (Breton) and other related terms derive from a Hebrew term meaning fermented product. It should also be pointed out that the Americans have caused confusion by calling their fresh apple juice "cider". So it's a mess! And I'm not convinced that there is a difference for the English between cider and apple wine: logically all should be fermented drinks obtained by the alcoholic fermentation of apple juice more or less diluted and sweetened (it is estimated that in English cider there is only 30% apple juice, the rest being added sugar). French cider is obtained only from apple juice (pure juice cider) but for ciders without this indication the apple juice can be diluted and/or apple juice concentrate added up to a limit of 50% of the initial sugars. For apple-based alcoholic drinks, according to the French legislation, we have the following definitions: **article 3** Sugars, honey and water may be used for the manufacture of the beverages defined in this article. Please also note that the fermented beverage made from pears is called "Poiré" in France. Besides, at the EU level, I've found a regulation on aromatised wine products Another one for spirit drinks : I am searching for their "translation" into the French jurisdiction. Coming soon, hopefully! |
General UpdateWhat's been done so far
New Alcoholic Beverages OverviewThe overarching alcoholic beverages categories will be kept broad, being define along the lines of whether they have wort, must, or distillation as a key component in their creation. Alcohol ranges will also be broad to be inclusive of different agency definitions. (labels have been simplified)
This branch will be further broken down as follows:
Additional subclasses will be added eventually as well. Curation of a Agency MappingsAfter the branch is restructured, we'll begin adding additional alcohol related agency mappings (using resources from this discussion thread to begin with) from across the globe. Example:
This will be done transparently and in collaboration with agency experts. Summary Image(From FoodOn Curation Meeting Presentation. Slides are available for viewing here) |
RE: Fermentation
Definitely more to be discussed on this topic as well. However, since this topic also applies to non-alcoholic beverages/food products (and because I'm concerned this issue thread might get unwieldy) would it be alright with everyone if I moved this to a new issue request? |
Fine by me. That's the usual practice - to close primary issue if resolved, and add other threads for related issues. |
I like where you are going...But many questions remain:
What percent alcohol needs to be in the food for you to consider it an
alcoholic beverage?
Also, aside from must and wort, are there other distinctions between beer
and wine (usually it is ? With rice wine and barley wine both validated
products--but is rice wine made with a must? The lines are being blurred.
<https://www.sfchronicle.com/wine/article/New-California-law-makes-it-easier-to-blur-the-14931607.php>
Where are you putting Kombucha and Kumis (both of which **may be** alcoholic
and neither use must nor wort --Kombucha uses a SCOBY [acronym for
symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast])? I am sure there are other
examples.
Also what about "fortified" wines and beers that have distilled alcohol
added back into them?
..and then of course there are cocktails...
…On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:03 PM Damion Dooley ***@***.***> wrote:
Fine by me. That's the usual practice - to close primary issue if
resolved, and add other threads for related issues.
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Currently going with > or >= 0.5% as that seems to be what the majority of countries consider alcoholic. Since we are trying to keep the major classes broad I am going with alcoholic being >= 0.5% and non-alcoholic being < 0.5. Will adjust if necessary.
As you say, the lines are very blurry. I personally cannot find a line that isn't blurred somehow somewhere (historically, culturally, geographically, in composition, opinion etc.) - the best line I've found is in the brewing process. I'm using However, to simplify it further one can simple consider Going with alcohol % isn't great as there is too much overlap in the ranges between
I have read brewers who call it
Kombucha tea and Kumis are designated as non-alcoholic when <0.5%. Otherwise All of these alcoholic beverages contain yeast, but as the fermentation discussion develops we can consider using additional microorganisms and fermentation processes for classification lines. Further study may reveal
Those will definitely have to be discussed and may end up with multiple parents or a hybrid parent class (even beer/wine hybrids are a thing now). The things list in the overview are the starting point. Next stages are reviewing all terms within said branch and reposition, reviewing agency information (to inform agency terms and the general class ranges), and continuing to discuss oddities. This isn't going to be done in one go. I'm going to start redeveloping the branch (in isolation of the rest of FoodOn) and as it gets developed I'll return to this thread with progress updates and discussion of outliers. Revisions will occur throughout this process. I will also share a spreadsheet with all the terms being worked on once I've started, that way everyone can look for outliers/revisions on their own as well. |
I'd like to keep this issue open to continue alcoholic beverage discussions for now so there's a place to discuss outliers/items of concern. Or would it be better to open new issues as they arise? That aside I'll open a new fermentation issue. We could still discuss fermentation concerns for alcohol here, but I think to general brainstorm/development should happen in another thread. |
Whichever way you feel most comfortable about in managing the info! |
From Wikipedia, "Must (from the Latin vinum mustum, "young wine") is freshly crushed fruit juice (usually grape juice) that contains the skins, seeds, and stems of the fruit. (.../...) "Must" could easily be applied to fruit wines and honey wine (which is a kind of "exception") but it seems that it could also be used for vinegar (which results from another acetic fermentation process). So, it is a bit confusing. Therefore, I think the 'non-wort' definition would perhaps be more appropriate to include also any other non-fruit fermented beverages and also those from animal origin like Kumis
By "ferments directly from sugars, I guess you mean there is no need for germination as in the malting process ? |
Thank you for this! FOODON and Beer now align on these terms and allow for cross-reference to beer, cider and mead. I think the current definitions are generic enough to build on and handle future corner cases like Root Beer, Spruce Beer (soda) and Spruce Beer (alcoholic). Different countries have national and local standards for what beer, wine (or champagne) should be, but perhaps these should be specialization classes? @oldskeptic will publish the beer ontology this morning and references to FOODON. |
Great, I'll move forward with this definition.
Yes! :) |
That's what I'm hopping to address by mapping agency definitions to different branches, but specialization classes may be warranted down the line. |
I noticed that there are three different classes in FOODON for beer: 'beer beverage' (00001260), 'beer' (3301619), and 'beer product' (00001064).
I found some inconsistencies with 'beer' (#3301619) since 'beer' is next to 'beer draft' and 'beer light' which doesn't make sense since the latter two are types of the former.
I subclassed the beers in the Beer Ontology under 'beer beverage' (00001260) and 'fermented plant beverage' (00001254).
While they aren't technically beers I have also added cider and subclassed it under 'fermented plant beverage' (00001254) as well as mead, which is subclassed under fermented beverage (00001094) since it is made by fermenting honey (not a plant).
Cross references ticket Myra-Analytics/beer#1 in the Beer Ontology
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