Replies: 9 comments 12 replies
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Plenty of context/thoughts to add here. Regarding if maximizing voting is the ideal metric:
Regarding actually increasing voting participation:
Regarding the slashing rate proposed:
Regarding only slashing the superminority:
Regarding under-explored risks and impacts of this proposal:
My TLDR opinions on these areas:Regarding if maximizing voting is the ideal metric: it's not, but an incentive model that exists only if validator participation is low could have merit Regarding actually increasing voting participation: I'd like to see the proposal reconsidered in light of reducing friction to participate, acknowledging that reasonable circumstances may exist that prevent some operators from voting in some regions, and that the proposal is targeting Regarding the slashing rate proposed: I'm strongly in favor of reducing yield over slashing, as it has the proper impact on general public's due diligence for validators acting favorably for the network. Regarding only slashing the superminority: My thoughts above are clear, I think this incentivizes the wrong behaviours from general public when deciding where to delegate stake / what LSTs to hold. Regarding under-explored risks and impacts of this proposal: I have concerns with how this turns SIMDs into an adversarial tool and how this makes supermajority-LSTs into "unslashable LSTs" in the team term, both should be further considered as impacts of this proposal. |
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Why have a superminority constraint at all? This will just encourage sybiling. If we implement this -- all stake should be eligible for slashing, not just superminority stake. |
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this'll be a nonstarter without first doing the slashing economics legwork. the cited testnet work is for duplicate block violation detection, proof generation and proof verification. no work on slashing economics is in progress |
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I agree with the idea here, but I disagree with this proposal. In summary, I feel if voted on, the governance process will be taken less seriously, and this feels almost like a coup. I do agree with the idea here, however I have to disagree with the proposal in general. The main issue I have with this proposal is that it will not be a fair vote. Many of the affected parties by this proposal will not be able to vote for legal reasons, thus it will be completely one sided. This would be equivalent to holding an election but doing everything you can to block one of the political parties from voting. Many validators in the superminority can't vote today due to legal reasons. I understand that this proposal attempts to address that, and I actually agree with everything being said in it. However, it feels extremely wrong to enforce a penalty on a party who cannot vote on the outcome here. There should be penalties for validators who don't vote if they aren't paying attention. However, there are real legal reasons why some validators don't participate today, and nothing has really been done to address the legal concerns they have brought up. I've voted on every proposal myself and I actually agree with the ideas here. However, the way this is attempting to be brought to a vote I do not think is fair or right. It sets a bad precedent IMO. |
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First of all, thank you for initiating this discussion, it's important to have these conversations! This is a complex topic, one the one hand, I would like to see maximal participation in governance, on the other participation just for the sake of it is likely undesirable. I actually disagree that participation rates in the two SIMD votes earlier this year were abysmal, over 50% participation is decent considering we know a double digit percentage of stake is unable to participate due to their internal compliance/legal constraints and in the absence of fully developed tooling. Slashing for governance seems premature given a lack of proper infrastructure, what we need is a Realms DAO or similar type setup to properly manage, implement and track votes, leading to a more established and regular cadence of votes, and only then once this is all established we can look at what incentives are needed to improve the process. Lastly on the proposed penalty of 50bps, this is a bit confusing to me, 50bps of what? On-chain there is no concept of APY beyond credits, which are relative to other validators and differ every epoch. Is the proposal to reduce the points (credits multiplied by stake weight) by 50bps? For one epoch, for one epoch-year? If a validator doesn't participate in 30 votes do they lose 15% of their points going forward? Attack vector: Could engaged validators set up a large number of votes, knowing some validators won't/are unable to participate, as a way of forcing them to take lower yield (reduction of credits/points of one validator automatically benefits all others through increased yield). |
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Hello guys, |
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IntroductionI'm glad to see this proposal out there and bringing this discussion to the forefront. I also think it points out a weakness in the current governance system, e.g. validators voting to implement a system that would put themselves at risk of being slashed. The other common objection to this approach is that it would cause validators to vote blindly or even write scripts to do a "check the box" vote. That said, I've long felt that any change that causes a validator to have to be even the slightest bit more engaged is a step in the right direction. Concerns and riskI agree the legal concerns are worth addressing, however am unsure how much of a difference addressing them and to what extent it would take to increase involvement. At a minimum it would remove, at least partially, one excuse for not participating. I would also caution against giving a pass to "big" validators and not to "small" operators, because the risk is proportionally the same to each operator in its own way. Consistent with this, I would suggest that all validators would be subjected to the voting requirement. Furthermore, the risk to validators who do participate increases as the size and number of those who don't participate increase. And let's not forget it's the larger operators who have the resources to hire the potentially required legal representation, in house or otherwise. Additional initial implementation thoughtsWhile I do feel it's a bit pre-mature to debate the specifics of implementation, here are a few additional, high level thoughts - 1 - Voting non-participation does feel like a slashable condition. 2- Rather than expecting 100% participation, maybe a lower threshold, e.g. 80%, should be considered, to provide some flexibility. Note the threshold should be calculated only on votes a validator was eligible to participate in, i.e. was operating on mainnet at the time of the vote. 3- The implemented slashing penalty could be time-boxed, e.g. until the 80% threshold is reached and exceeded. Additional requirementsThree things that seem to be required to move this discussion forward - 1 - A slashing mechanism defined and implemented on the network 2- Legal and regulatory concerns addressed 3 - A more stable and mature governance process, implemented on-chain ConclusionIncreasing governance participation is a worthwhile endeavor. It feels like now is the right time to start this discussion. The proposed slashing mechanism is one lever that can be used to increase governance participation. While there are steps to be taken before this proposal could be implemented, the conversation should continue in parallel to efforts to address the requirements listed above. And in the meantime, other governance participation incentives and disincentives should be explored and discussed. |
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Validators don't vote because things are going well and the proposals aren't that important. If something important comes up, they will come out to vote. This is how it should be, apathetic voting is a very negative thing. Worst case would be that validators vote randomly, which will cripple decision making. Best case would be that validators with no opinion vote abstain, in which case we have gained nothing but an increase in the barrier to become a validator and the risk to stakers. |
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Slashing is a strong action for this. I agree that validators should participate, but disagree that it should only apply to the superminority - and I think slashing is a bit too dramatic (should be reserved for malicious actions). I think whatever system is implemented should apply to ALL validators regardless of stake, and perhaps a more benign penalty would suffice? Maybe we can just track vote participation and put it on public validator dashboards. That should encourage validators to participate as it gives visibility into their participation, but doesn't actually penalize them if they can't (like mentioned above for legal reasons). This is kind of in the same vein as validators running their own relayers. There really isn't any penalty for using the public ones, but stakers willing to research can easily see that they aren't using best practices. I think that's probably the kind of nudge that vote participation could benefit from. Just name and shame those who don't publicly. Let stake decide what to do with that information. A simple system like that could suffice. Just bring visibility to participation. If for some reason it's still a big problem for whatever reason, then we could investigate a penalty system - but I don't see that as necessary at this point (although agree we want validators to participate!) |
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Proposal
If a validator within the superminority fails to vote on a SIMD proposal, they will be slashed 50 BPS upon completion of the voting process.
Note: Failure to vote is defined as complete non-participation in the voting process. It does not matter if a validator votes Yes, No, or Abstain for a given proposal — what matters is that they vote.
Why?
Participation in Solana’s governance is abysmal at best.
For example, the initial advisory vote in October last year had just 14.3% participation. In April, only 53.29% of stake voted on SIMD-0033 regarding Timely Vote Credits. Even for SIMD-0096, a favorable proposal for validators to provide them with the full priority fee, only 51.17% of stake participated.
Something needs to change. And, incentivizing the validators within the superminority (i.e., those with the most stake) to vote is a necessary step toward this.
Prerequisites
This proposal inherently depends on some sort of future slashing implementation, as Solana currently lacks one. However, slashing is on the horizon, as it is presently being tested on testnet. If this proposal graduates from the idea stage to a formal proposal that passes, there is a material possibility that it could be implemented in the near future.
This proposal would also depend on an implementation that tracks validator participation within the protocol. However, this is trivial to implement compared to slashing, as one could easily track validator participation for a given vote by querying the chain.
Potential Next Steps
Appendix
Why 50 BPS?
Fifty basis points (BPS) — or 0.5% — is a nontrivial fraction of total annual yield. If a validator were to achieve approximately 8% annual yield through their participation in consensus and block production, a penalty of 50 basis points would reduce this yield to 7.5% in cases of governance non-participation. This represents a 6.25% reduction in total validator returns, which is a material impact on validator profitability such that the penalty cannot be absorbed as a cost of doing business.
With the current inflation rate around 5%, the proposed penalty represents roughly one-tenth of the annual inflation rate. This proportionality is intentional, as it creates significant economic pressure to drive governance participation among the superminority while remaining well below the threshold that might threaten validator stability or network security.
Moreover, the cost of maintaining and operating governance voting infrastructure is demonstrably lower than the potential 50 basis point penalty. While meaningful, the penalty preserves 93.75% of expected validator returns, thus maintaining the fundamental validator value proposition.
Naturally, if this proposal passes the idea stage, we can reconsider the 50 basis point penalty based on this proposal’s commentary before drafting a formal SIMD. A fixed BPS may lead to a very wide spread in the total actual slashable amount over time as the inflation rate decreases and fees vary each epoch. However, a variable BPS could become increasingly complex and potentially be less punitive over time if it fails to accurately account for decreasing rates of inflation.
Why Not Extend This Proposal to Other Validators?
It is entirely possible for us to crunch the numbers to further break down participation rates within the superminority, supermajority, and long-tail. For now, it would be best to start with the superminority (i.e., the smallest set of validators), assess how this proposal is received, and, if it passes as a formal proposal, critically analyze its effects on incentivizing superminority validators to vote. Expanding this proposal to other validators becomes increasingly complex since the pass criteria enforce no lower bound on participation, and whether it should is debatable and out of the scope of this current proposal.
The goal of this potential proposal is to start incentivizing validators to vote. Beginning with the superminority and going from there seems best, as it’s easier with respect to social consensus to view the top validators as the ones who should have a vested interest in the protocol and its governance.
Most Institutions Don’t Engage in Governance Voting For Legal and Regulatory Reasons
Again, let me reiterate: validators within the superminority should have a vested interest in Solana. Thus, these validators should be participating in governance.
Validators can be thought of as elected representatives within a proportional representation system. When users stake their SOL with a validator, they do not merely seek yield but delegate operational authority and governance responsibility. Validators should, therefore, act as stewards of Solana.
The superminority’s increased voting power through stake concentration creates a corresponding increase in responsibility. With greater stake comes a greater obligation to participate in the protocol’s governance. Validators accepting substantial stake positions implicitly accept a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of both their delegators and the protocol.
The common institutional argument against governance participation often centers on regulatory uncertainty. However, this is an easy cop-out. Validation itself is an active participation in network governance through consensus. Voting on protocol improvements is a natural extension of this. Additionally, major protocol changes directly affect validator operations and economics. Governance non-participation while maintaining validator operations inherently becomes contradictory.
In response to the argument above, some institutions will likely cite concerns regarding American general partnership law. Here, the problem is that participating in consensus is distinct from governance, such that participating in governance would mean validators are acting as members of an unincorporated entity. The clear innovation here would be to create a governance entity under Wyoming DAO law, in which all validators are members solely to vote for governance proposals.
Of course, our main focus should be building systems that are useful to everyone around the world rather than embarking on noble legal battles. However, what good is a system’s governance if its top stakeholders never participate? How can we enact meaningful change to the protocol when those with the most to say are silent?
If institutions truly believe in blockchains and Solana as leading this future, who better to navigate the legal and regulatory landscape than those with deep pockets and teams of experienced lawyers? Superminority validators with large institutional backings are uniquely positioned to navigate evolving regulatory frameworks while actively participating in Solana’s governance.
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