Scheduled calls for FLEDGE

[michaelkleber]

We are holding (mostly) weekly phone calls to discuss and resolve the details of the FLEDGE proposal.

The next meeting is planned for Wednesday Oct 23, 2024 at 11am Boston (= 8am California = 4pm Paris time = 3pm UTC, as clocks are changing!).

Calls will take place on Google Meet:

• Video call link: https://meet.google.com/djm-iupb-sdz
• Or dial: ‪(US) +1 401-589-5448‬ PIN: ‪327 541 034‬#
• More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/djm-iupb-sdz?pin=1430654960091
• Calendar entry: Join the Google Group https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/protected-audience-api-meetings/ . (Even though this page says "You don't have permission to access this content", but if you log into a Google account then you will see a "Join group" button at the top of the page.)

Agenda proposals, attendance records, notes will happen in this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kr0hpfQ_Q1LX1aN00D5k_09yV_a7WE9RSn69nS3nZho/edit

For a speaker queue, we will use the Google Meet "Raise My Hand" feature.

If you want to participate in the call, please make sure you join the WICG: https://www.w3.org/community/wicg/

Other related meetings:

1. People interested in this discussion may also be interested in the complementary discussion of the Trusted Servers that the browser interacts with during the flow of this API. See Scheduled calls for Protected Auction Services protected-auction-services-discussion#27 for logistics of that meeting, which is scheduled to take place immediately following this meeting, around half of the weeks.
2. Microsoft Edge folks are also working on a heavily-overlapping proposal. They intend to meet during this same hour every second Thursday. See Scheduled Calls for Ad Selection API  privacy-preserving-ads#50 for logistics.

[BasileLeparmentier]

Hello Michael,

If I am not wrong the dates are all next week, I see that Wednesday is first in number of attendant, and Monday second.

Can you please tell us which one it is going to be?

Best,
Basile

[michaelkleber]

Yes indeed — the Doodle poll's most popular time is Wednesday at 11am Boston / 5pm Paris / 8am California, approved by 34/39 voters. We'll start with that on this coming Wed Feb 3.

(The second-place hour in the poll, the same time slot on Mondays, now makes me nervous, since it is the slot that the Conversion Measurement WICG calls are also using. They are currently on an every-other-week schedule, but there was just a comment in last week's call about maybe adjusting the frequency. So I'm glad to avoid that risk of future conflict.)

[TheMaskMaker]

Hello Michael,

I am new to the WICG and was hoping for guidance on how to access the meetings. I have been poking around the group page and discourse but could not find it and am hoping you can help me. Thanks in advance!

[thezedwards]

Assuming it's not done already, I'd like to request that the calls be recorded or full transcripts provided -- these FLEDGE details and discussions about how to fix side channels prior to deployment may need considerable external dialog and ideally people could catch up to previous discussions if they are not engaged yet.

Recordings are ideal, transcripts second best.

@michaelkleber - can ya'll consider creating a FLoC calendar/resource page, outside of Github, with links to 100% of the proposals, calendars for discussions like FLEDGE and a centralized resource to ongoing issues and side channels being debated? It feels like tons of important topics or convos may get duplicated because people didn't find a corresponding github issue, and it would be helpful if someone at google would link to 100% of the 3rd party feedback/articles/videos and provide clarifications/corrections when needed. At this point, the public almost needs a "FLoC Fact Check" where rumors and confusion can be clarified. Not a War Room - a fact check resource. This work to audit new data supply chain proposals for side channels is hard enough without well-intentioned people getting details wrong, or some FloC opponents purposefully confusing details -- and without a place where an average person can "submit a rumor for response" to the Google team, I fear there will not only be tons of businesses who can't prepare themselves, but reporters / auditors / privacy advocates / gov officials will potentially put up road blocks for non-problems, while ignoring real side channels that need debates and potential trade offs.

[michaelkleber]

Call Details:

Calls will take place every other Wednesday, for one hour, beginning at at 4pm UTC = 11am Boston = 8am California = 5pm Paris time. The first call will be Wednesday Feb 3 2021.

The call will take place on Google Meet:

• Video call link: https://meet.google.com/djm-iupb-sdz
• Or dial: ‪(US) +1 401-589-5448‬ PIN: ‪327 541 034‬#
• More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/djm-iupb-sdz?pin=1430654960091

Attendance and notes will happen in this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kr0hpfQ_Q1LX1aN00D5k_09yV_a7WE9RSn69nS3nZho/edit

For a speaker queue, we will use the Google Meet "Raise My Hand" feature.

[michaelkleber]

Hi @thezedwards: Details and discussions will surely need considerable external dialogue, as you say! But these phone calls will serve largely as a place to bring up these questions, or to call attention to them. The substantive discussions should all happen in individual GitHub issues. This should allow for the kind of after-the-fact catching up that you mention, and also for full participation in the work by people who can't join a meeting this particular hour.

This is the W3C standard, but I quite understand that it's not familiar to everyone. Thanks for pointing this out, and I will be sure to make it clear during the calls where the detailed work happens.

I will also bring up the question of recording. See here for a discussion of the W3C position on recording meetings.

For stuff about FLoC, could you please open an issue on the FLoC repo? This issue, and indeed this whole repo, is about FLEDGE and the extended TURTLEDOVE family of ideas, which are pretty separate from the FLoC work.

[thezedwards]

Thank you for those links @michaelkleber -

I've got concerns with the w3c position on recording meetings - I've commented on that thread and will continue to take this up on external channels.

These discussions are about massive changes to the Chromium platform -- used primarily by Microsoft and Google - and it seems like the discussions are being organized in Github and Google Docs (w3c uses a different note taking app typically) - the feedback is being organized in software respectively owned by the 2 entities tracking the proposals and feedback. I have concerns with ya'lls tracking vectors in these platforms, and I don't think it's appropriate for neither Google or Microsoft to have a centralized place on either of your websites linking to all the proposals and with details about how to get involved.

I feel strongly that this process is siloing feedback in dangerous ways for the market -- it takes a herculean effort to track down all the proposals and potentially all the links needed to parse concerns.

The Google/Microsoft teams should consider creating one simple support article on their respective websites - link to all your blog posts about this (posts like this @ https://blog.google/products/ads-commerce/2021-01-privacy-sandbox/ are great and filled with good links, but this isn't how normal google support articles are organized), link to all the proposals from google + criteo and everyone working on different angles - and explain how the W3c process works and why it was chosen for discussions. Ya'll could list all the tracking vectors for each proposal, all ongoing side channels that need debate -- a clean way to showcase concerns and non-google proposals *(with responses showing concerns). At some point, Google will need to clarify this process to the world and for regulators/elected officials (how it went down) -- and ya'll will likely need to create this resource at some point before the launch of any of these proposals -- my ask is that ya'll front load this, get all the links organized now - explain process + meeting opportunities - and help more folks engage in this process before most of the decisions are finalized.

FWIW, I'm also advocating for elected officials to hold hearings on the privacy sandbox proposals vs 3rd party cookies - and I hope that this important decision about the internet isn't made by just a handful of folks on a Microsoft-owned social network for developers.

Thanks for hearing the concerns and trying to think of any ways to organize all the details in an external page off-github -- while linking back to the proposals on github as-needed.

Sincerely,
Zach

[michaelkleber]

Hi Zack: Perhaps what you're looking for is Chrome's Developer Relations site, where @samdutton has an article https://web.dev/digging-into-the-privacy-sandbox/ ? That was last updated in December, and FLEDGE is more recent than that, so not perfect, but I think it's a start.

[thezedwards]

Thanks, that is a good article I'd agree. I guess i'll put in "a vote" to update that one blog post and just put FLEDGE and ongoing new content in that one post. That's sorta the problem though - ya'll have a few good posts, that all link to good stuff - but none of them are 100% accurate and there isn't one where people can check back week after week for any new links/data/results/concerns etc.

cheers,
zach

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the Feb 3 meeting are posted here; much thanks to @jkarlin for scribing.

Next call is planned for Feb 17. See the top message in this issue for logistical details.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the Feb 17 meeting are posted here; much thanks to Brendan Riordan-Butterworth for scribing.

Next call is planned for March 3. See the top message in this issue for logistical details.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the March 3 meeting are posted here; much thanks to @JoelPM for scribing.

Next call is planned for March 17, though I will (per discussion this time) look into forking off a second call so that we can split the technical/privacy discussion from the business/go-to-market discussion.

[michaelkleber]

NOTE that the March 17 at will take place at 3pm UTC = 11am Boston = 8am California = 4pm Paris time.

This meeting is anchored to US time zones, so for Europeans it will be an hour early on March 17, due to Daylight Savings skew. (Heads up @BasileLeparmentier @lbdvt @plmrcy @jonasz)

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the (short) March 31 meeting are posted here; much thanks to @BrendanIAB for scribing. Next call on April 14.

[michaelkleber]

For the April 14 call, I would like to discuss #132 "Restrictions on interest group JS processing power/memory usages" and #154 "Edge MPC". And more generally, I'd like us to discuss the type of computations needed for bidding and bid scoring.

The recent proposals of a Dovekey auction using secure 2PC and the MaCAW 2PC extension to PARAKEET are both relevant here: the MPC approach offers substantial wins in both privacy and utility, but only if the functions to be computed fall within the restrictions imposed by their computational model.

(Explicit heads up to @BasileLeparmentier @jonasz @pjl-google @gangwang-google @KeldaAnders, to be sure you see that I mentioned your assorted issues and proposals.)

[michaelkleber]

Added minutes from the 4/28 meeting here; next call 5/12.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the 5/12 meeting are posted here.

Next call will be on 5/26. Unfortunately it seems that I can only attend for half an hour on 5/26 — my apologies in advance. So the next meeting will be from 4pm to 4:30pm UTC, rather than the usual 4-5 duration.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from 5/26 posted here, next call on June 9.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes for 6/23 posted here, next call July 7.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes for the past two meetings are posted: July 7 and July 21. Sorry for failing to link to the July 7 minutes earlier; all minutes are in this directory.

The next meeting will take place on August 4th, but I will be out on vacation. My colleague @JensenPaul, manager for the FLEDGE implementation work, has offered to run it in my absence. Please be nice to him.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes for Aug 8, hosted by Paul, belatedly posted in the usual directory. Next call Aug 18, "tomorrow" if you're up late and in California and "later today" for attendees in the rest of the world.

[tyaeger]

Hi Michael, thanks for the updates and notes. Would you be able to share if there is a github link or another way to learn more about the PARAKEET calls happening? You mentioned there is one a week from now and we're keen to understand their timing and testing. Many thanks, Tamara

…

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:29 AM Michael Kleber ***@***.***> wrote: Minutes for Aug 8, hosted by Paul, belatedly posted in the usual directory <https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/tree/main/meetings>. Next call Aug 18, "tomorrow" if you're up late and in California and "later today" for attendees in the rest of the world. — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#88 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ATCKJXJIH3FQ55LF24JWXLLT5NAL5ANCNFSM4WPX2C5Q> . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS <https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675> or Android <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&utm_campaign=notification-email> .

-- Tamara Yaeger Product Coordinator

[michaelkleber]

Hi @tyaeger, thanks for joining today.

PARAKEET calls are taking place during the same hour as FLEDGE calls but in the alternate weeks. The details, including the Microsoft Teams link to join, are in WICG/privacy-preserving-ads#3.

And more generally, w3c/web-advertising#104 is an attempt to maintain a list of all the various discussions relevant to that group's topics of interest.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from 8/18 posted at https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/main/meetings/2021-08-18-FLEDGE-call-minutes.md. Thanks to @JoelPM for scribing.

[appascoe]

I'd like to add #225 to the agenda for 9/27, if possible.

[michaelkleber]

Hello folks! Due to conflicting time demands, we will need to reduce our Protected Audience WICG calls to only 30 minutes, instead of the usual hour, for the next two calls (Wed 1/24 and 1/31). (edit: see next message contradicting this)

[michaelkleber]

Update to update! Today's meeting (1/24) was only half an hour, as promised, but next week (1/31) we will revert to our standard full hour.

[myonlinematters]

Hi all! Is there a weekly meeting tomorrow (Feb 14) and agenda? I'd like to review the comment threads on the agenda items before the meeting if possible.

[michaelkleber]

Hi @myonlinematters: Yes, meeting tomorrow as usual, and the agenda items are as listed in the doc (which is to say, same as last week, minus those that were covered in the Feb 7 meeting).

[michaelkleber]

Reminder for folks outside the US: we have now changed our clocks, so folks calling in from Europe will see this meeting happening an hour earlier than usual (e.g. 4pm in Paris rather than 5pm) until you too change clocks at the end of March. Happy summer.

[michaelkleber]

We have now made it through the clock-skew weeks where the US and EU disagree about the beginning of summer. Meetings beginning next week, on Wed April 3, will be back to their normal 5pm Paris time slot.

Also, we will have no meeting on Wed April 10, two weeks from today, because the PATCG in-person meeting is at the same time.

[TheTamFamily]

Is there a call today 10th April at 16:00 pm BST (17:00 pm Paris Time).

[michaelkleber]

No, there was no call yesterday. The cancellation was announced in the comment right above the one where you asked. Also, if you subscribe to the Calendar event by joining the Google Group https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/protected-audience-api-meetings/, your calendar entry will be removed if some week's meeting is cancelled.

[michaelkleber]

Hi folks: There will be no call next Wednesday April 17 (next week), since none of the Google folks are available. Happy Massachusetts School Vacation Week to all who celebrate.

See you April 24.

[michaelkleber]

There was some question in today's call about how to join the magic Google Group that gives you a calendar entry for this call. Here's what you should see when you visit https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/protected-audience-api-meetings/ while logged into a Google account that is not part of the group:

Even though "You don't have permission to access this content", you can still join the group. At that point there will still be nothing to see on that page, because the group has no contents! But you'll get the calendar entry.

Edited to add: If you used to have the calendar entry and it has disappeared, try leaving and re-joining the group.

[warrrrren]

@michaelkleber Is there a call today? I still see last weeks agenda items 🙃

[michaelkleber]

@michaelkleber Is there a call today? I still see last weeks agenda items 🙃

Yes, sorry, doc now refreshed for this week.

[michaelkleber]

There will be NO meeting next week, June 19, in honor of the Juneteenth US Federal Holiday. See you June 26.

[michaelkleber]

Hello folks! I was away for last week's call on June 26, and Paul is away now. So I don't know whether there was any consensus on whether or not to hold a call tomorrow, July 3, likely a holiday for many US-based participants. I'm happy to hold a call, but if regulars would like to 👍 or 👎 this comment to indicate their opinions on having a call tomorrow, perhaps I will learn that it should be cancelled instead.

Update: With only one down-vote, the July 3 meeting will happen as usual.

[michaelkleber]

NOTE: No new agenda items have been added for the meeting scheduled for tomorrow (8/14). We have two old suggested items from @thegreatfatzby that have been hanging around for a long time, but that he has demurred on a few times already.

If no new agenda items are suggested today, then I believe we should declare it "summer", cancel the 8/14 meeting, and reconvene on 8/21 if there is something new to discuss by then.

[michaelkleber]

Okay, with no items proposed for the Aug 14 agenda, tomorrow's meeting is cancelled. We will meet again on Aug 21, assuming there's someone not off on summer vacation to propose something to talk about.

[gcpidentity]

👍

[omriariav]

How can I get edit permissions to suggest agenda items?

[dmdabbs]

+1 the agenda doc is locked down.

[dmdabbs]

@JensenPaul and @michaelkleber the agenda doc is locked down. This week's meeting was canceled due to no agenda items and I heard at least one person chalk that up to the doc having been locked.

Do you have a new doc policy (to guard against spam) and so you want folks to "Request Edit Access" to add agenda items?

[JensenPaul]

I added comment access back to the doc; sorry about that, not sure how it got locked down.

[michaelkleber]

Hi folks: Please note that we will not be holding a call next week (Wed Sept 25) because of the W3C TPAC annual meeting. I look forward to seeing other TPAC attendees in person. Next call the following week, Oct 2.

[dmdabbs]

Hi folks: Please note that we will not be holding a call next week (Wed Sept 25) because of the W3C TPAC annual meeting. I look forward to seeing other TPAC attendees in person. Next call the following week, Oct 2.

Thank you @michaelkleber. When y'all archive and reset the agenda doc would you mind please adding a note about this week's cancellation?

[michaelkleber]

HELLO EVERYONE INTERESTED IN THE TPAC JOINT SESSION ON CHROME PA AND EDGE AS APIS:

The power at TPAC was down during the time we were supposed to meet earlier today, but it's back on now.

We plan to reschedule and meet from 2pm-4pm Pacific Time today (i.e. starting in 40 minutes). Sorry for the chaos.

Note taking will be in the Microsoft folks's usual Google Doc, at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yy3KFtnUmqMRUmpmgBNGJUGtjkqRhokrLlYr1vdnYjw/edit?pli=1

Joining instructions are on the TPAC site at https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a4bfaea7-f932-4dec-ba73-c8e78ea1fa6e/

[michaelkleber]

Hi all, for our European colleagues, please note that the US doesn't change our clocks until next week. So the Oct 30 meeting today/tomorrow, at 11am on the US East Coast, may seem an hour earlier than usual this week.